(no subject)

[doyle]

I'm writing the Angel/Nina essay for ship_manifesto (squee!) and I'm desperately in need of fic for them. Anybody written or seen any? It doesn't have to be the focus of the fic.

So far I've got A Day in the Life of Puppet Angel and a drabble from Buffyverse1000 which I've happily read approx. 10,000 times. anniesj, I know you wrote one for me at tigannie_con but I can't remember which thread and whether it was locked...

*plots meta stuff about Angel/Nina as Giles/Olivia and the potential for darkfic and why the not-even-close-to-soulmates-or-true-love relationships are so damn appealing*

Comments

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

*g* Yup, that's pretty much it.

Alias lost me forever when Syd said the s-word and meant it in total serious about her relationship with Vaughn. I threw something at the TV.

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

So do you think that a person who believes in soulmates is a naive, silly little schoolgirl who doesn't understand what a true relationship entails?

(And I'm not trying to start a war or anything, I'm truly curious. I even posted something about this in my lj last night)

I've noticed a lot of times when people talk about the silliness/stupidity of soulmates, it's got that undercurrent of "Oh, silly little girl, believing in soulmates." I understand that a lot of this reaction is directed toward fics that have this notion that since Person A/Person B are soulmates, they'll be together forever and ever and nothing will ever tear them apart. Believe me, I don't believe in that crap.

I wonder though how much this attitude toward fanfic is also reflected in an attitude toward a person who believes in soulmates. I believe in soulmates *pauses for the snickering and taunts* BUT I'm not one of those "B/A4eva" fangirls. Yes, I believe in the "one perfect person for everyone" but I also know that you may not find that person. Life is full of difficulties, and so is love. Just because I believe in the idea of soulmates does not mean I have this idealized, naive view of love. An emotionally healthy and stable relationship takes work; just because you're soulmates doesn't automatically give you a "Advance to GO. Collect all your life's happiness" card. Maybe you'll make it; maybe you won't. No one knows.

From reading comments in various ljs recently, it seems to me that a person who confesses to believe in soulmates, "the one," etc. is often viewed as (a) a silly naive girl; (b) someone who doesn't have the first clue about a "real" relationship and/or (c) an emotionally stunted person pining for an old crush. I can't do anything about that because people are going to think whatever they're going to think. And honestly, I don't care. Believe me, this is not first time I've been made fun of for this, and it won't be the last.

I guess what I'm trying to say (very unsuccessfully, I might add) is that a notion of soulmates doesn't automatically exclude the person from the land of the rational. We're not all silly fangirls pining away for our high school boyfriend.

Is it possible for a person to believe in soulmates and still have an idea of how a real relationship works? Yes. Is it possible that I have pissed everyone off with this? Distinct possibility. For that I am sorry. I know this might have come across as a harsh rebuke, but I swear, I never intended it that way. I was just trying to explain that it is possible for someone to believe in soulmates and yet still be in the "real" world. Then again, maybe this proves what they say.

*sigh* I really shouldn't post when I've had such a crappy day.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

So do you think that a person who believes in soulmates is a naive, silly little schoolgirl who doesn't understand what a true relationship entails?


:blink: Um... no. Not at all. For one thing, I wouldn't assume anything about someone's real life based on fandom like or dislikes. I probably made my point badly: I think using the word 'soulmates' is too often a lazy device employed by TV writers in lieu of actually *showing* why their main pairing's meant to be - Smallville did it in the episode Skinwalker with that girl whose name I can't remember. Hey, much easier to make her a threat to the Clana that way than expending effort in making her a 3D character and building a real relationship with Clark.

To me the Sydney/Vaughn relationship feels forced because I don't like Vaughn and I don't see the chemistry. To me it's more interesting when I'm not hammered over the head with 'these characters are together because they're fated to be', because it's rarer. YMMV.

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I *knew* I was coming across as majorly bitchy!! Damnit!!

I am really sorry about the tone of my previous comment. I never intended to come across as being such a raving bitch. I was genuinely interested in your comment that I responded to; reading it made me start thinking about the other ljs I've read recently where there was discussion of soulmates. In a lot of those comments, there were definite overtones of "stupid little girl believing in soulmates." I totally did not mean to imply that you are one of those, and I am so, so sorry that I did. Your comment had me wondering if those other people's opinions were, I guess, a general consensus toward "soulmate" people. I understand that you were talking more in the fanfic/TV/movie sense; the others.... not so much.
And I think I'm only digging my hole deeper. *sigh*

doyle_sb4, I'm really very sorry for the bitchiness of my previous comment. I never meant to attack you or anything like that, especially to come across this way in *your* LJ.


::offers hand in a very non-bitchy, "I'm sorry" handshake::

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

*g* Hey, no problem. It got me thinking, and that's always a good thing. Sorry if I came off bitchy too, I just get frustrated at myself if I feel I'm not expressing things in such a way that people outside my head can understand them.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I don’t believe in soulmates. Some people do. Some people meet their soulmates. I know enough of real-life stories about people who met one day and never parted to justify a soulmates theory. I most certainly don’t want to imply anything about any person who believes in existence of his or her soulmate somewhere.
I was talking more about fictional characters and soulmates on screen and in fanfiction (or literature) as the easy way out, and I would say I dislike the perpetuating of an idea of soulmates as the only real love, and waiting for the soulmate no matter what. Again, absolutely nothing personal!

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Another example, actually the one I was thinking of when I was initially making the post: I love Angel/Cordelia. It was my first Angel 'ship and even though there were definite moments (episodes...) of trainwreck, I still think it had potential.

But kyerumption. Dear lord, kyerumption. Never have I facepalmed so much. It just seemed like so much of a short cut. "Hmm, they need to go from best friends to potential lovers. Let's see, this could happen organically from their characters and existing relationship or we could make up a word and have Fred and Lorne lecture them on how Meant to Be they are."

Again, my opinion, everyone else's minds may vary...

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I need to go bury my hand in the sand *right now*.

I know my first comment came across as a personal attack. I never intended that AT ALL. I've come across similar comments as yours and doyle_sb4 (although much more harsh toward soulmate believers) and it got me thinking.

I swear, I am not normally this bitchy or rude. I'm just so sorry for the rude tone of my first comment.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

:hugs: I'm just worried I've scared away all my B/A people. It's no big secret I'm more for B/S than B/A and far more for A/S (or A/B/S) than either, but I loved the pairing on the show, love writing it. I'm too much of a pairings whore to be anti-anything. Well, anything Jossverse *looks towards Clark/Lana with narrowed eyes*

I've definitely lost the Syd/Vaughn shippers *g*

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

You haven't scared me away, even though you probably wish I would go. *g*

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

*attaches self to your legs*

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

When is your essay on Angel/Nina due? Even though I don't ship that particular couple (witness the icon), I am very interested in your thoughts on the couple.

So.... I take it there won't be any discussion about Angel and Nina being soulmates? *winks*

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Heee. It's due on the 23rd (meep, need to get writing, but as least I'm free this weekend).

Ironically, the only fic I've written with major A/N was heavily B/A.

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

Ooh, where is it? Is it on your site? I don't know if I've read it....

*runs off to look for it*

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Self pimping like a ho... (http://www.livejournal.com/users/doyle_sb4/250722.html)

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

OH HELL YEAH!! Dude, I remember this one - for the buffyverse1000, right??

Oh man, I *loved* this ficlet. It made me like Nina, and I don't like her character. I pimped this thing at my LJ and on my board like nobody's business.

I think my reaction was: THUD! (that was my jaw hitting the floor)

It was just so raw. And the kicker? You established such a powerful tone in very few words. I. loved. it.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Wow, thank you! :) It was the first thing in ages I felt genuinely enthused about writing, so I'm really glad you liked it.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

No need to bury anything anywhere. ::cuddles you::

It actually was interesting for me to talk about soulmates in life and in fiction, and I absolutely didn’t perceive you as bitchy or rude.

And, hey, this discussion got me thinking, too! So it’s all well!

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I have one friend who is probably the most anti-soulmate person I've ever encountered. I enjoy these discussions with her because we don't allow each other to fall back on the "because that's just how it is" argument. Granted, when I whip out B/A, she laughs her ass of at me. *bg*

I've really enjoyed reading y'all's thoughts. I don't go for the sappy, "ooh, I've found my soulmate and now my life is perfect. We'll never be apart and we'll never have any problems." Ugh, no. I think that's one reason I love B/A so much - yes, I think they're soulmates, but dude, have they had an easy time? Hell no. Has it been a bed of roses for them? That'd be a big no. *If* there is any kind of a AtS/BtVS future and *if* B/A are reunited, I want it to be as real and as messy as possible.

::hugs you::

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Word. Same here.